maxpower0204 (maxpower0204) wrote in 2004_elections,

Listen Now

For those of you who do not get cable (me) listen to the supreme court hearing on voter irregularity in Ohio at If you do get cable, it is on CSPAN. I don't think it matters what party you belong to, this is a big deal. As a democrat, you have to feel violated for the second consecutive time. For republicans, you have to question your parties tactics. Is this the way you want people to view you? We already know how the decision is going to go, but it is important to hear this directly because the media insist on referring to these problems as "minor glitches" when in fact there was one county in Ohio in which 3500 votes were cast for Bush when only 600 people were registered, when the media was denied access to witness the counting in Warren County. Once our country accepts tactics like this, our last piece of democratic participation will be stolen from us as well.
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I wonder how long before our resident Republians on this community will tell you to "get over it" It's their typical response when they cannot defend against allegations of election irregularities.
I don't understand why. This affects all of us, man (Big Lebowski). I haven't gotten over 2000 yet. I doubt, as an Ohio resident and veteran of OIF, that I will ever get over this, especially if I have to go to Iraq on the next rotation. Republicans need to wake up because this was done in their name. They are impacted by this because it gives them a bad name, even though most of them are well meaning people who just happen to have different views than we (liberals) do. Most of them are not thugs who suppress minority votes. The media feeds (Fox news) feeds republicans half-truths and lies about the "conspiracy theories" used by the liberals to cast a shadow on the "mandate" handed out to President Bush.
hey i'm republican.. i won't tell you to get over it.. why? because it makes me feel better when i listen to you democrats cry and cry about kerry's loss. HAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
You support Bush so much why don't you come down to Ohio and take my spot in the next Iraq rotation. I always hear so much rhetoric coming from your camp, but there is, and always has been, so little action (except for when it comes to supporting the ultra rich at the expense of, say, teachers, workers, police man, fire man, well, just about anyone who does any good for this country on the mirco level.

And you don't hear us crying. You hear us getting mad.
No i hear more whining and crying then people getting mad. Second in my town us republicans take WELL care of our police men, fire men, and teachers. Third i did my time in the military, now i'm out. If i was ever called back in though i would serve proudly for President Bush.
so maybe george won. maybe he didn't. officially he won by 1.5 % in ohio. The exit polls said he lost by 3% or so. We know that the computers are unreliable, as you know if you were paying attention to the number of articles in the months before the election that said how computer experts were saying everywhere how unreliable and vulnerable to tampering the machines are, if you heard how they kept screwing up before the 2004 election, if you read in the Columbus Alive about how before 2004, gubernatorial and congressional races swung 10% or some huge amount from popular polls favoring dem. candidates to cons. candidates winning the actual vote.
I know it is hard to prove one way or the other, as madrigal says below, and it is unreasonble to ask someone to prove that the election was legit, but what we have now is a situation where we have to say, "maybe this candidate won. Its hard to tell" That just is not good enough. If you are in the military fighting for freedom and democracy in foreign countries, you have to be concerned about freedom and democracy here or you are just fooling yourself. If the election was tampered with, (and we know it was at least as far as unevenly distributing machines goes) then almost everybody lost, including you.
I didn't lose. I wanted Bush to win and he won fairly. I was in the Military a couple years ago and yes freedom is important to me. Thats why i joined in the first place. I would glady serve under Bush if called to do so. But another thing..

Last year.. NFC Championship Game. All the experts predicted the Philadelphia Eagles to beat the Carolina Panthers really bad. Even Computers predicted it. But they lost. Not even close. Blaming Republicans for computer mistakes is wrong. If there were any mistakes to begin with. Where i live there was levers, everything went okay over here. Kerry won my county but not by much. I'm not complaining of cheating or anything. People voted for who they wanted and he won. You have to respect who people vote for no matter what your opinion is and how bad you think a person is. If they vote for the devil its their choice and their right to vote for him.

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"a lot of indicating that it was".. no theres not. theres just alot of whiners who can't take the fact that Bush won.. FAIR. so again for the SECOND STRAIGHT year they say he stole it. Pathetic.
you remember those 90.000+ non- felon-completely innocent-upstanding citizens who were mostly black and taken off the rolls in florida by katherine harris in 2000? they still aren't back on yet.
show me your source.. not what someone says.. an actual source.
source- freepress journal

"It makes a person question everything about these organizations. Ever wondered why the voters who were unfairly purged from the rolls in Florida are still not back on the list? It seems that instead of getting a court order, the voting rights groups (including the Legal Defense Fund of the NAACP), agreed to an out-of-court settlement with the state of Florida. Four years later, disenfranchised citizens are still not on the voter rolls.

Four years after the 2000 election, voting machines are causing more problems than ever. Someone needs to get a clue. At least let's have a real debate, Wade. "


Lynn Landes is one of the nation's leading journalists on voting technology and democracy issues. Readers can find her articles at Lynn is a former news reporter for DUTV and commentator for the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC).

If your vote isn't being counted you take it to court yourself. If they aren't doing that.. well thats their fault. If they are being kept from voting the county will fix it unless you are truly not allowed to vote. Voting doesnt have anything to do with the federal level. It's monitored by the counties and the state if there are problems. If there is one they would fix it. Not be embarrassed and let the whole nation watch them screw it up.
sadly, mark, most republicans don't care whether or not democracy is on the up and up in America right now because irregularities seem to favor them. They only want to have Bush in office regardless of voter fraud and supression. They refuse to face the music here and on other issues (like, for instance, the lack of WMD in Iraq). They claim to have the moral high ground, but apparently lying is not an important enough moral issue to bring up.
ok, i take the bait (even though i voted for kerry): get over it!

i can't really defend against "allegations" of election irregularities, just as i cannot really defend against allegations of UFO landings or Elvis sightings.

and more to the point, can you name one election in which you're sure that everything went well? elections, like any human-run enterprise, will always have irregularities; we only notice them now because in 2000 they may actually have mattered. people will tell you to get over it because this year bush won ohio by over 100,000 votes, and he won the country by over THREE MILLION votes- are you seriously suggesting that all these "irregularities" changed the final outcome?

whining about stolen elections prevents democrats from assessing the real reasons they lost and the problems with our party and its message; why don't you concentrate on how to win the next election, rather than on how this last one "might" have been stolen?
You can't win an election if it's rigged using voting machines that do not provide any audit trails. Do you understand that? How can anyone get over something when there hasn't been any kind of verifiable audit trail? Three million votes can easily be stolen using voting machines. People cast votes for one person and the machine records the vote for another. It only takes a fraction of voting machines in circulation all around the country to do this. Not to mention vote supression and the fact that vote tabulation can easily be modified at the server.

We will get over it when there is transparency from Kenneth Blackwell and other Ohio officials. We will get over it when all voting machine vendors provide paper trails and receipts for all votes. We will get over it when you show us that. Otherwise we will not get anywhere.
i agree. the best way to prepare for the next election is to make sure there are no black box machines being used. However, I heard that even voting rights organizations are not even talking about getting rid of machines.
People have mistaken "whining" for being angry. When democrats "just move on" they accept that what happened was ok. Part of why we are so pissed is because John Kerry "just moved on" the day after the election after promising us he wouldn't conceed until every vote was counted. Again, it doesn't matter to me if there are not enough votes out there to overturn the election, its a matter of priciple. Voter intimidation and similar tactics used by Republicans in Ohio (such as sending out flyers that repoublicans were to vote on election day and democrats were to vote on the next day in poor minority sections of Columbus- on official Franklin County Board of Elections letter head) will not be tolerated in a modern democracy. Just because the media calls these "minor gliches" (if you think the media has a liberal bias, you haven't been watching the news since 9/11), doesn't make it so. Whom does it serve to refer to our activism as "whining" and our outrage as "liberal conspiracy?"

People in a democracy need to participate, not just in elections, but in acts towards reform. Democrats have a propensity to "think things through" and "assess" which results in little action, a constant state of disorganization and perceptions of weakness. While moving on to the next election is certainly our ultimate goal, we need to participate in hearings, such as the one in Ohio last week that you may or may not have heard about, and bring issues to the supreme court. to ensure the legitimacy of this vote count. These are legitimate acts of democratic participation, not whining. This is action. While we may never be able to truly verify these acts of fraud, we can use this as a platform for reforms in the way elections are run.
final results swung by several percentage points from the exit polls (before the exit poll numbers were tainted by mixing them with computer results) in several key states. The swing in ohio was well beyond the margin of error of the poll. If the exit polls were right (they were done by a seasoned expert) then there is a 99% chance that kerry won ohio, and a stats prof said, if you consider the other states, there is only a 1 in 500000 chance of a swing happening on this scale.
Sorry, it wasn't the supreme court hearing, it was just a psuedo-hearing to get our voices heard.
there is actually now a lawsuit filed by reverend Bill Moss in Columbus that is going to the Ohio Supreme Court. It lays out the irregularities in about thirty pages, and uses these in tandem with exit poll data to claim that Kerry should have won both ohio and national popular votes, and asks that Kerry be named president. It seems lot a lot to ask, but should attract more attention to the issue, I guess?